Thunderbolts* should have been the movie to end Phase Four.

I love Thunderbolts\*, but it came way to late. It's a team up movie that mainly ties together Phase Four projects such as The Falcon And The Winter Soldier, Black Widow, Hawkeye, and to a certain extent Black Panther: Wakanda Forever. That's four of the fifteen projects (excluding the two special presentations and I Am Groot) of Phase Four. While that's not great, Thunderbolts\* has ties to one other Phase Five project, that being Captain America: Brave New World, which had some minor setup for it. If Thunderbolts came out in May 2023, as the conclusion of Phase Four, it would've been a lot better in the long run.

Commentaires

Mudcreek472025-11-30 05:47

It wasn't?

comineeyeaha2025-11-30 05:53

It ended phase 5. Wakanda Forever was the last movie of phase 4.

eagc72025-11-30 06:21

Phase 4 ended with Wakanda Forever and the Guardians of the Holiday special

Phase 5 ended with Thunderbolts and Ironheart

We are now in Phase 6

2dal3atcave2025-11-30 05:48

![gif](giphy|LSvB8JdEf4yascdXf1)

HoneycombBig2025-11-30 05:48

The Phases don’t mean anything anymore. Once Endgame hit, there were too many things in motion and too many changes that things really couldn’t be planned.

impuritor2025-11-30 05:50

The phases don’t matter anymore. Not worth getting worked up over

Temassi2025-11-30 06:05

I remember Fiege saying they were moving away from the phases after Endgame. The phases were cool for the Infinity Saga but trying to make it all work in the Multiverse Saga is exhausting.

Zestyclose_Lead74592025-11-30 07:31

I think there was a way to do it. but they just had too many pans in the fire. It really does feel like they were just doing things because they can and they didn't really have plan. I mean you look at shit like Sharon Carter as Power Broker or Dane Whiteman. And you just wonder what was the point of that?

Daredevil pre strikes where they were just going to go scorched earth and reboot him in the MCU. Or Hulk randomly having a sun with a fucked up hairline

Even the Young Avengers to an extent. They've spent 5 years introducing these characters. Outright teased it in the marvels. Not even once have they ever even looked at a writer for a show or movie.

outride20002025-11-30 07:38

It’s the same problems the comics have: sometimes you have too many threads going on and it’s hard to keep track of them all. The difference is that in the movies there are actor contracts involved.

Zestyclose_Lead74592025-11-30 08:36

I mean, to a degree. But they also had a lot more say in what they do and don't. I don't think they should have introduced a lot of the characters they did, if they were not ready for them

AnonymousFriend802025-12-01 21:13

So you would rather not have those wonderful experiences at all?

Thomas_JCG2025-11-30 11:23

Phases are far easier to handle. It is not any different from making a story in three acts. it brings order to which movies should be released. The only reason they say they are moving away from phases is because of how royally they screwed up the entirety of the Multiverse Saga and now are trying to save face.

Frosty_Appointment372025-11-30 12:41

COVID swapping NWH & DSMOM release dates & Disney forcing MCU to do "Quanity over Quality" messed up Multiverse Saga

Its kinda funny that I had very less problem keeping track of MCU post Endgame because I watched all tv series as they released,

Heck I never needed Disney + to keep track of MCU post Endgame
Only New Rockstars, Th3Birdman, YouTube And MCU wiki .
Granted I regretted not watching MCU films i loved in threatres , first one being Endgame

Watching film in threatres just hits different than tv or phone

I would say Its gonna be way EASIER TO keep track in Phase 6

alex4942025-11-30 15:39

It kind of helped give things structure I found, without it things seem more aimless which is clearly how the general public has taken it given how many people fell off Marvel. That or Endgame seeming like a natural stopping point.

DiabolicalDoug2025-11-30 16:47

I think it was a big mistake in hindsight as audiences wanted big Avengers events to build up to, clearly the scatter shot method of stories failed to generate the same interest.

Imagine if you will my dream pitch:
Phase IV: Deals with an Avengers-less world that is becoming more volatile and complicated due to superheroes. Mostly focuses on grounded heroes but keep WandaVision and FFH as a way to show distrust of superheroes. Ends with Thunderbolts being made as a government sanctioned team.
Phase V: Starts getting weird again. Space, magic, multiverse. Builds up the threat of incursions. Ends with the events of Doctor Strange 2 but retailored to make it an Illuminati movie with the heroes from the Shang Chi post credit scene as the team struggling against Wanda who is tearing apart reality for her own goals which triggers an Incursion event they stop at great costs. Use Werewolf by Night to kick off monsters into the MCU and actually release Blade, give us TWO Fantastic Four films.
Phase VI: Kang and multiverses. Everything built up comes to a head. Traditional Avengers vs Thunderbolts in a Civil War 2 story but oriented around multiverse refugees in the main MCU and how to deal with Incursions. Monsters running loose in a Magic Movie team up. Kang comes and triggers an Incursion by attempting his own rewrite of the MCU which results in a Dark Avengers led by Doom Stark. Doom Stark defeats Kang and builds Battle world which builds directly into Secret Wars.

SippinOnHatorade2025-12-01 01:54

Just gotta restart and call it Chapter 2: Phase 1

Any-Transition952025-11-30 06:12

They shouldn't have kept it at all in any of their promotional material and what not, since they never intended to use the Phase structure anyway. It just added unnecessary confusion to the general public.

impuritor2025-11-30 06:44

I’m sure they’d do a lot of things differently over the last five years if they could.

Any-Transition952025-11-30 06:58

aye, fair point

Schedonnardus2025-11-30 07:02

Welcome to the MCU, where the rules are made up and the phases don't matter.

TPJchief872025-11-30 16:19

They never really mattered to me lol. The saga as a whole, yes. The phases, not so much

Ordinary-Chain-80472025-11-30 05:51

I agree because they’re now the new avengers and we get more time with the new avengers this way

Plebe-Uchiha2025-11-30 05:59

That would've made Phase 4 quite long. [+]

marvelcomics222025-11-30 06:07

[deleted]

Plebe-Uchiha2025-11-30 07:58

Phase 1 had 6 films in 5 years, true.

Phase 4 already has 7 films in 2 years.

Phase 5 has has 6 films in 3 years. Half of the phases have only 6 films excluding Phase 3, 4, and 6.

Are you suggesting that Phase 4 should have had 13 films? That's 2 more films than Phase 3 which was the last phase of the Infinity Saga. So they'll start their first phase of the Multiverse Saga with 13 films?

Or are you suggesting to add Thunderbolts* as the 8th film for Phase 4? Why? Why add Thunderbolts* but not Brave New World? Or should both of them be in Phase 4 making it have 9 films?

No Way Home and Multiverse of Madness follows the themes of alternate universes same with Loki season 1. Does that mean that Deadpool+Wolverine, The Marvels, and Vol. 3 should've been in Phase 4? Why yes or why not? I'm genuinely confused why Thunderbolts* should've ended Phase 4.

Even if Thunderbolts* would've been the 8th film only in 2023, that would've been a bloated phase. There isn't any phase where one phase starts and another phase ends in the same year. Would Phase 5 start in 2024?

There's a lot of logistical issues with your suggestion.

The problem is that the MCU films have a set timeline (no pun intended) for when films are to be released and how many at a time. There's a lot of moving parts that's why yeah the phases have never gone as smoothly as anyone would like. Sure, Thunderbolts* would've been a great sequel to Black Widow. But, it would logistically change a lot.

One of the issues the MCU faced was that fans felt fatigued. Endgame ended the Infinity Saga and 2 years later we get 7 films, 8 shows, and 2 specials. And you think adding 1+ more films would have made Phase 4 better?

Am I making any sense? [+]

labbla2025-11-30 06:09

Yeah, that would have made sense because all those characters were introduced then. It's weird Marvel lets so many things sit around for years now.

eagc72025-11-30 06:20

To be fair.........there was a pandemic and a strike that halted Hollywood, this saga was cursed by delay after delay, heck we were supposed to wrap up this Multiverse Saga earlier this month. think about it we were supposed to start the next saga next year, but because of the internal chaos at Marvel, things had to wait longer than planned, look at Thunderbolts pre-strikes it was supposed to release last year.

labbla2025-11-30 06:27

I'm so tired of these pandemic excuses. Yes, that delayed things and strikes happened blah blah blah. That doesn't change the fact that Marvel never had a plan to have some sort of finale for the end of the phase. It's not a secret, until recently they were showing off their plans years and years ahead of time.

Things happen. That's life. That doesn't excuse them suddenly forgetting how things worked very well in phase 1-3.

eagc72025-11-30 06:38

I have had that feeling that maybe Marvel felt that since they now they could do like 10 projects a years that they could take advantage to explore other stories that aren't part of the main narrative, a bit like the comics where we have on one side some comics that are leading to a big event and the other we have stuff that aren't part of that storyline, but of course since we as fans got used to the idea that every project in the MCU was part of this single narrative that this would apply to say stuff like Moon Knight or Eternals (as far we know that is), so its all over the place and feels disjointed to us. I think maybe Feige should've said ahead of time that while there is still gonna be an overall arc that some films and shows will build towards (Doomsday/Secret Wars), there is also gonna be some standalone stories that aren't tied to that the main arc.

I have made the argument that if you were to cut the fat (lets say for example Eternals, Moon Knight, She-Hulk, Echo, etc) and only focused on the Multiverse related projects and projects we do know will tie to Doomsday, it feels better connected (of course with some rewrites in the event some of them have ties in to non-Multiverse projects or projects that as far we know aren't tied to Doomsday or Secret Wars)

I won't be surprised if maybe Feige or someone at Marvel Studios thought that the Avengers films would feel more special and epic if they were reserved as the finale of the saga, instead of having an Avengers every now and then.

chiefbrody622025-12-05 13:05

Yes, let's forget that the pandemic made movie release dates constantly change, and made the interconnectivity pretty hard to achieve. Let's just ignore that.

the_explorer20032025-11-30 06:13

The whole phase concept just went to shit after antman 3.

GarySoneji2025-11-30 06:13

What difference would it make? “Phases” are marketing terms, not narrative structures.

Thomas_JCG2025-11-30 11:25

Phases are the narrative structure. Beginning, middle and end.

JKastnerPhoto2025-11-30 17:32

Yup Ant-Man was a great Phase 2 indicator /s

Thomas_JCG2025-11-30 18:33

The character that was introduced later, yet was essential for the conclusion

JKastnerPhoto2025-11-30 18:37

So was Captain Marvel, literally appearing ex machina after the penultimate movie... in a completely unrelated story.

GarySoneji2025-12-02 04:04

Those are functional titles, not a structured plot. How do the phases reflect a beginning, middle, and end of a story?

Thomas_JCG2025-12-02 11:01

Phase 1 introduces the core characters and hints at the main villain. Phase 2 advances those character's arcs. Phase 3 concludes their stories and has the big villain fight. It really isn't hard to see this.

el_palmera2025-11-30 13:23

Why is this sub acting like a phase never meant the time from one avengers movie to another

alex4942025-11-30 15:41

Phase 2 and 3 technically end with an additional movie after the Avengers movie

AmaterasuWolf212025-12-01 02:25

Phase 4-5 coping

trexeric2025-12-01 23:06

Right, even though technically 2 and 3 end with a sort of postscript additional solo movie, the phases were marked by movies leading up to team-up films. I agree with OP that Thunderbolts could've been a great, different sort of team-up to wrap up a phase.

Everyone is saying that the Phases never mattered, but that's not true. And now that they really don't matter everything is a mess.

I guess I'm just saying that Phases were a legit way to organize the movies and they should've kept to that formula (roughly, of course Thunderbolts is a different type of team-up from the Avengers).

GarySoneji2025-12-02 03:54

That technically makes all the difference *and* breaks the mythology that phases are anything more than production goals.

Phase 1 is arguably the only one that mattered, but, again, that’s more relevant for the studio than the audience. It showed them that a group of loosely connected movies can actually payoff.

When you say organize, do you only think of phases as a period of time that includes a team-up/Avengers movie? Otherwise, nothing relates them to one another.

chiefbrody622025-12-05 13:02

I watched all the Infinity Sage movies in theatres, and I could've cared less about the phases. Phase 1 was really the only one that needed to be a phase, and even that one was named phase 1 as an afterthought.

chiefbrody622025-12-05 13:01

Phase 2 and 3 ended with Ant-Man and Spider-Man movies...

Any-Transition952025-11-30 06:14

Yea 100%. There's no meaning to the Phases anymore. If they wanted to keep the Phase naming convention, they should have at least kept some semblance of meaning to it. Thunderbolts closing out Phase 4 would have made perfect sense given it's a team-up film and the characters involved.

Either way, Phase 4 and 5 were genuinely such a mess, felt like there was no structure, no method to the madness, just Marvel throwing everything at the wall hoping something sticks.

kenlubin2025-12-02 00:27

> just Marvel throwing everything at the wall hoping something sticks.

but if something does stick (like Shang-Chi), just leave it on the wall instead of doing anything with it.

eagc72025-11-30 06:19

Thank you! That's what i've been saying for a while now

LivingOof2025-11-30 06:34

Phase 5 was marketing speak for "our last group of movies underperformed and we don't want our next group of movies associated with them"

PrestigiousFail59552025-11-30 06:56

Almost all phase 4 films are profitable. Almost all phase 5 films are flops

LivingOof2025-11-30 07:22

Yeah. It was Feigie who thought he could recapture phase 3 hype and money. Not us

PrestigiousFail59552025-11-30 07:25

Pn retrospect phase 4 wasn't that bad

It had some good projects:- 1) wakanda forever 2)MoM (I was disappointed by it but it's alright) 3) NwH 4) shang chi

And some bad but profitable ones: black widow, thor love and thunder

Only film that really bombed was eternals.

D+ shows were what made it bad.

dcooper86622025-11-30 06:45

As far as I’m concerned everything after Endgame has been one big dumb phase

Wooden-Radish-90082025-11-30 06:54

I agree with others that phases don't necessarily matter anymore, but also, yours isnt a bad idea

disneylegospider12025-11-30 06:58

Why should they get their follow up project before others waiting for one first? Doctor Strange, Black Panther, Guardians, Captain Marvel, Deadpool, Captain America, etc were all waiting for their continuations before Yelena and the Thunderbolts, so it makes sense their films came first.

TheJack0fDiamonds2025-11-30 07:26

If theres one thing they’ve confirmed with this saga is that they truly lucked out in the infinity saga with how it seemingly came across as well planned and that they were hoping to luck out again but failed this time

EcksFountain1322025-11-30 08:30

Everyone says this. We all agree.

Big_Epsilon2025-11-30 09:30

I’m surprised anyone particularly cares

darthyogi2025-11-30 11:30

Yeah and we should’ve had a sequel at the start of Phase 6. And F4 should’ve released in Thunderbolts’s place. The Thunderbolts could’ve been the main team in the multiverse saga if introduced earlier

cowpool202025-11-30 11:51

Are Phases even really a thing anymore other than just a slapped on label?

eagc72025-12-01 07:34

Its still a thing, even just days before the release of FF, Feige said that this is kicking off Phase 6

https://www.gamesradar.com/entertainment/marvel-movies/were-already-well-into-development-of-the-next-saga-marvel-boss-kevin-feige-on-fantastic-four-first-steps-phase-6-and-the-future-of-the-mcu/

Only difference is that we no longer have Avengers to close them, basically any movie can now be the finale

Livid-Walk-27092025-11-30 12:01

Phases still matter in MCU ,i think, that's how they can create timeline for another movie ,and how it connected.

El_Presidente3762025-11-30 12:11

Nope Secret Invasion should have been

Frosty_Appointment372025-11-30 12:37

Maybe

I am not sure

Sure most of the members had appearances in Phase 4 , I think BNW was necessary for Bucky to be Congressman in Thunderbolts

it makes more sense if it is post BNW, because Red Hulk debuts in BNW & placing BNW after Thunderbolts is HUGE MISTAKE, because Red Hulk reference won't make sense

![gif](giphy|WhTC5v5qQP4yAUvGKz)

I request elaboration on this

Like do U wanna merge Phase 4 & Phase 5 into united Phase 4 (which sounds bad & rushed) or U have your own order of Phase 4 & 5 projects release?

marvelcomics222025-11-30 12:41

Well, I don't think you read the last sentence.

Frosty_Appointment372025-11-30 12:46

" If Thunderbolts came out in May 2023, as the conclusion of Phase Four, it would've been a lot better in the long run."

do U wanna merge Phase 4 & Phase 5 into united Phase 4 (which sounds bad & rushed) or U have your own order of Phase 4 & 5 projects release?

Like do u mean BNW should be After Thunderbolts?

marvelcomics222025-11-30 13:45

In retrospect, the Phase Four slate we got -> BNW -> Thunderbolts\*, like move up Thunderbolts\*, and because it's ties to BNW also move that up just before it.

Frosty_Appointment372025-11-30 14:25

yeah I can agree with that ,

"Phase" is kinda loose term anyway

if F4 : First Steps released in 2024 , it would have kinda broken the chain

1994 : unreleased F4 film

2005 : Fantastic Four duology

2015 : Fant4stic

2025 : F4 - First Steps

Affectionate-Bus9272025-11-30 16:46

no 2024 would have been perfect for this chain // 1994 + 11 = 2005 + 10 = 2015 + 9 = 2024 also it would have been a 30 year anniversary

SalukiKnightX2025-11-30 12:55

Tbf, outside factors like C19, the Writers/Actors Strikes along with Disney’s push for more content made these phases a bit haphazard. They’re all good movies that could’ve been better.

Frosty_Appointment372025-11-30 13:01

***Thunderbolts\****, later advertised as ***The New Avengers***, is a 2025 superhero film, based on the [Marvel Comics](https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Marvel_Comics_(publisher)) team of the [same name](https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Thunderbolts). It is the thirty-sixth film in the [Marvel Cinematic Universe](https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Marvel_Cinematic_Universe) and the fourteenth installment of [Phase Five](https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Phase_Five). The film was released on May 2, 2025.

(No films or tv series referenced here)

* [Continuity Overlap](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ContinuityOverlap): *Thunderbolts\** is set not long after the events of the preceding MCU film *Captain America: Brave New World*. Bucky has won his Congressional run and is now serving as a member of the United States House of Representatives (and Valentina's snide commentary establishes he's only served less than half of his two-year term, thus clarifying the internal chronology). Thunderbolt Ross' Red Hulk rampage is also still recent enough that Valentina cites it during her Impeachment hearing.

Yelena: Black Widow & Hawkeye

Alexei: Black Widow

Antonia Dreykov: Black Widow

Bucky Barnes: FATWS & Cap 4: BNW (barring Infinity Saga)

***John Walker: FATWS***

***Ghost/ Ava Starr: Ant-Man & Wasp***

***Bob : Thunderbolts\****

***Seems better than binging 21 films for watching Endgame***

Flying_Mohawk2772025-11-30 15:26

It should have been introduced earlier.. this group should have been these phases GotG. - ragtag charismatic group that gets in over their head.

Jaideco2025-11-30 18:33

Totally true… the only thing that they would have needs to change was the storyline where Bucky somehow got elected. If they just said that he had been been recruited into the intelligence services and was supporting the inquiry by gathering evidence against Val, everything else works…

ChaoticCaptain1772025-11-30 21:04

Definitely. It's the team up movie that phase 4 needed

SamXTeck2025-11-30 22:36

Seemed like a throw away film honestly

Remarkable-Key-93352025-12-01 05:54

It was actually supposed to be as they first announced it in 2022 at SDCC, but the strikes happened and they moved it because DP&W was the only one ready

eagc72025-12-01 07:31

Thunderbolts was actually already part of the Phase 5 slate when they did that panel in SDCC

Winter-Cartoonist9192025-12-01 17:49

Black Widow should have been the end of Phase 3.

marvelcomics222025-12-02 01:05

Black Widow should've come out between Infinity War and Endgame, and they have the post credit scene being Yelena dusted.

Winter-Cartoonist9192025-12-02 07:56

Yeah. But it would have been great if Black Widow came out in Phase 2.

CommunityDragon1842025-12-03 15:11

Pretty arbitrary. Who cares?

watze972025-12-04 06:41

Absolutly,that's what they should have done .

If you take out eternals out,this is what phase 4 movie would have look like:

PHASE 4

- Black widow

- Shang chi

- Spiderman: no way home

- Dr strange: multiverse of madness

- Thor :love & thunder

- Black panther wakanda forever

- Thunderbolts *